gmasterxy****: Hello Are you there?
UltraMegaOK1988: Hey
gmasterxy****: Hey
UltraMegaOK1988: Who's this?
gmasterxy****: I was wondering if you are in the mood for a religious discussion
gmasterxy****: Soxprospects24
UltraMegaOK1988: Oh, I'll have a short one with you if you'd like
gmasterxy****: ok
gmasterxy****: First off, why don't you believe in God?
UltraMegaOK1988: You're not going to try and convert me or anything, are you? You'll join the rest of the tried-and-failed :-)
UltraMegaOK1988: I don't believe in God because he's illogical
gmasterxy****: How many have tried and failed
UltraMegaOK1988: I don't know, I don't keep track ;-)
UltraMegaOK1988: Let's just say too many
gmasterxy****: Jeeze, I'll give it a shot
UltraMegaOK1988: I don't want to have a conversion conversation
UltraMegaOK1988: I'll debate if you'd like
gmasterxy****: Yea ok
gmasterxy****: So why do you think God is illogical?
UltraMegaOK1988: Think about it: there's a being in the sky that has the ability to watch over 6 billion people on the planet
UltraMegaOK1988: If you don't believe in him, he'll send you to a place of eternal torture... but he loves you
gmasterxy****: God actually has given people the option to believe in him. It's up to you whether or not you want to spend eternal life with him.
UltraMegaOK1988: Supposedly
UltraMegaOK1988: It's selfish and conceited to even give such an option
gmasterxy****: I think it's a fair option. Why would the Lord want people who tenaciously not believe him, to enter the kingdom of heaven?
UltraMegaOK1988: He does love everyone, right?
gmasterxy****: The Lord does love everyone
UltraMegaOK1988: If that's true, he should offer salvation to all
gmasterxy****: He does offer salvation to all. It's up to you whether or not you want tot accept God's offer to you.
UltraMegaOK1988: Yes...
UltraMegaOK1988: We went over this
UltraMegaOK1988: :-\
gmasterxy****: So what don't you understand about that
UltraMegaOK1988: I understand it completely
gmasterxy****: If you do not want to believe in God, it is totally up to you. But what I am trying to say, why wouldn't somebody want to offer up themselves to the Lord?
UltraMegaOK1988: Because they wouldn't want to believe in something so outrageous
gmasterxy****: Why is it outrageous?
UltraMegaOK1988: You stopped believing in Santa Claus once you figured out for yourself it's illogical that someone would have flying reindeer and drop through chimneys, bringing presents to all
UltraMegaOK1988: The concept of God is the same
UltraMegaOK1988: Have you ever seen Santa Claus? Have you ever seen God?
gmasterxy****: I stopped beliving in santa claus, because he was something that society made up. I believe in God because he told us that in roder to obtain eternal life we must believe in him
gmasterxy****: I personally have never seen God. Have you ever seen wind?
UltraMegaOK1988: Yes, but you can feel its presence
UltraMegaOK1988: You cannot feel God's presence
gmasterxy****: I can feel the Lord's presence
UltraMegaOK1988: That's something you tell yourself
UltraMegaOK1988: There's scientific proof of wind; there is no proof of God
gmasterxy****: There is proof of God
UltraMegaOK1988: There are theories, and proof that adds to those theories, but there is no hard evidence that there is a God
UltraMegaOK1988: Otherwise, we wouldn't teach Evolution, or people wouldn't accept other religions - or no religion at all
gmasterxy****: I believe that Near death experiences imply that God exists, along with miracles obtained by the Lord
UltraMegaOK1988: You may believe it, it does not make it so
gmasterxy****: How are you so sure of yourself
UltraMegaOK1988: Think about it
UltraMegaOK1988: Logic or magic...
UltraMegaOK1988: I have never seen God: I don't believe in God; You have never seen God: You don't believe in God
UltraMegaOK1988: Excuse me, you believe in God.
UltraMegaOK1988: Typo
gmasterxy****: I believe in God because God exists! You don't believe in God because you are looking to deeply on ways to prove he doesn't.
UltraMegaOK1988: You don't know he exists other than unproven theories and what you tell yourself
gmasterxy****: Your trying to get around the idea of there being a supreme being
UltraMegaOK1988: It's the opposite
UltraMegaOK1988: You're trying to prove the existence of a God, whereas I don't have to do anything, as he has never physically shown himself
UltraMegaOK1988: Does my life change if I decide to give up on disproving God? No. Does your life change if you decide to give up on proving God? Yes.
gmasterxy****: Billions upon billions believe in the creator, or the Lord God. How can you prove that he doesn't exist
UltraMegaOK1988: I can't
UltraMegaOK1988: You can't prove it either way
gmasterxy****: Look at the complexity of everything around you
UltraMegaOK1988: Yes?
gmasterxy****: The Earth is perfect (geographically) water (chemically inert, nutrient-like), the human brain (intelligence and knowledge need be created by a high power)
UltraMegaOK1988: Do the brains of animals also need to be created by a higher power?
UltraMegaOK1988: The Earth is far from perfect
gmasterxy****: Yes, considering that the Lord created everything
UltraMegaOK1988: Life is far from perfect
UltraMegaOK1988: There is nothing perfect
gmasterxy****: I am talking about geographically
UltraMegaOK1988: How is it perfect?
UltraMegaOK1988: The fact that we can live?
gmasterxy****: If the Earth was just a tiny bit smaller, we couldn't sustain life
UltraMegaOK1988: Consider it an aberration
gmasterxy****: If Earth was larger then there would be no hydrogen = no life
UltraMegaOK1988: If Mars had been a little closer to the Sun, it may have been able to house life-forms
UltraMegaOK1988: Would God also be responsible for that?
gmasterxy****: but it's not
UltraMegaOK1988: So?
gmasterxy****: The universe is too complex for something just to all of a sudden happen
UltraMegaOK1988: The universe is too simple for a higher being to be credited with it
UltraMegaOK1988: I'm sure a deity could do a much better job than making one of many planets habitable for life-forms
UltraMegaOK1988: I'm sure a deity could do much better than putting life-forms on a planet that regularly kills off those life-forms with volcanoes, earthquakes, mudslides, hurricanes, tsunamis
UltraMegaOK1988: Earth is a process, not a creation
gmasterxy****: Earth is a creation and a process
UltraMegaOK1988: Is God responsible for Venus and Jupiter, too?
UltraMegaOK1988: If so, why didn't he put life-forms there? Because it's scientifically impossible for Earth-like earthforms to life there
UltraMegaOK1988: Live, not life, another typo
UltraMegaOK1988: We humans think in terms of ourselves
UltraMegaOK1988: We think God is there for us, and only us
gmasterxy****: Because the lord put us here for a reason
UltraMegaOK1988: What reason is that?
gmasterxy****: To live a life in the Lord
gmasterxy****: To love and serve him
UltraMegaOK1988: Uh... okay? That doesn't explain why he put life on Earth and only Earth.
gmasterxy****: We are unique, that is why
UltraMegaOK1988: What a convenient rationale
UltraMegaOK1988: I hate to generalize, but all Christians are God-apologists
gmasterxy****: Ok
UltraMegaOK1988: :-\
UltraMegaOK1988: You have to love a God that will let you live your life as a servant
gmasterxy****: I don't understand what you mean by that
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: To live a life in the Lord
gmasterxy****: To love and serve him
gmasterxy****: Yes
UltraMegaOK1988: What's the point in being a God-slave?
gmasterxy****: Did I ever mention, Godslave?
UltraMegaOK1988: No, but that's what you inferred by saying humans live to serve God
UltraMegaOK1988: Serving God = God-slave
gmasterxy****: I don't believe you are inter-preting me correctly when I say that
UltraMegaOK1988: Then tell me what you mean
gmasterxy****: What I mean is that God wants everyone one to discover their purpose. He has purposes for everyone, and by serving him you can find out your purposes
UltraMegaOK1988: That's not a life at all
UltraMegaOK1988: That's slavery
gmasterxy****: Actually it's not
UltraMegaOK1988: Would you like it if the government pre-planned your job once you reach the age of 18?
gmasterxy****: It's actually not that hard once you believe in the Lord
UltraMegaOK1988: Of course it's not hard once you believe in the Lord, if you embrace the fact that God has pre-planned your life, you are a robot; a drone
UltraMegaOK1988: Why have dreams and aspirations?
UltraMegaOK1988: Why shoot for that big promotion, or enter into contests, or play the lottery?
UltraMegaOK1988: God has it planned out
gmasterxy****: Actually on the contrary
gmasterxy****: I have to disagree with you. Once you love the Lord and believe in him, things come in easy. I don't believe in the pre-destination thing of sorts, as in what we do in everyday life. Rather I believe that it's up to the person to get through life, and I believe it's helpful and necessary to go through the lord
UltraMegaOK1988: How do you know "things come in easy"?
UltraMegaOK1988: Maybe they come in easy for you; they may not for others
UltraMegaOK1988: How many Christians lost their homes and families, and even their lives after Hurricane Katrina?
UltraMegaOK1988: Tell them things come in easy
gmasterxy****: Natural
UltraMegaOK1988: Natural?
gmasterxy****: Let me explain
gmasterxy****: Naturally it's a mystery. I can't explain suffering, nor can anybody else.
UltraMegaOK1988: You seem to be able to justify everything else that God is responsible for; why not something as negative as suffering?
gmasterxy****: Name somebody who can explain suffering
UltraMegaOK1988: Myself
gmasterxy****: Hmmm... I don't think s
gmasterxy****: o
UltraMegaOK1988: Would you like me to try/
UltraMegaOK1988: ?
gmasterxy****: You can try, but do so in an incorrect way
UltraMegaOK1988: How would it be any more incorrect than your religion?
gmasterxy****: My religion is correct
UltraMegaOK1988: How is it any more correct than Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Judaism?
gmasterxy****: The Lord Jesus Christ
UltraMegaOK1988: This is pointless, every conversation with a zealous Christian ends up going in a circle
UltraMegaOK1988: Your religion is correct... to you
gmasterxy****: It's correct to billions
UltraMegaOK1988: So? The majority isn't always correct; if that were true, then racism would be correct
gmasterxy****: No.
UltraMegaOK1988: Yes.
UltraMegaOK1988: :-\
gmasterxy****: no.
UltraMegaOK1988: Explain?
gmasterxy****: Please let me pass on that question, as that is a question of morals
gmasterxy****: Getting back to the existence of God
UltraMegaOK1988: It's not a question of morals
UltraMegaOK1988: It was an analogy
gmasterxy****: Racism is never correct
UltraMegaOK1988: But billions of people accepted it, just like Christianity
UltraMegaOK1988: Does that make it correct?
gmasterxy****: Well I believe it does.
gmasterxy****: You think that you need to see God to believe in him, correct?
UltraMegaOK1988: For the most part, yes
UltraMegaOK1988: But one second, let me clear up what you just said
UltraMegaOK1988: Because Christianity is believed by billions of people, that makes it the "correct" religion; but you believe racism is wrong, even though it too, was believed by billions of people
UltraMegaOK1988: Hence, you're saying that your religion is correct because it's what you believe in; your rationales cancel each other out
gmasterxy****: I believe that Christianity was institued by the existing Lord Jesus, then making the billions who believe in it, correct
gmasterxy****: I don't believe that sicne billions believe in it, then it is correct. Billions believe in Islam, but that is not correct
UltraMegaOK1988: If Jesus had instituted racism, would that make it correct?
gmasterxy****: Jesus didn't institue racism, there are no- if and or buts
UltraMegaOK1988: How convenient, I can't use if-statements, but you can
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: If the Earth was just a tiny bit smaller, we couldn't sustain life
gmasterxy****: If Earth was larger then there would be no hydrogen = no life
gmasterxy****: I am speaking of truth!
UltraMegaOK1988: As am I
gmasterxy****: You said " If ..... had"
gmasterxy****: I never said "If.......had"
UltraMegaOK1988: So?
UltraMegaOK1988: They're if-statements - hypotheticals
UltraMegaOK1988: The structure of the statement has no bearing on it
gmasterxy****: The word "had" made a difference
UltraMegaOK1988: Oh, really?
gmasterxy****: Your saying if in fact, he did.
UltraMegaOK1988: It's a hypothetical
gmasterxy****: What I am saying, is a statement
gmasterxy****: What you are saying is a hypothetical
UltraMegaOK1988: No, your statements are hypotheticals
gmasterxy****: gmasterxy****: If the Earth was just a tiny bit smaller, we couldn't sustain life
gmasterxy****: do you disagree?
UltraMegaOK1988: Scientifically, that is correct
gmasterxy****: ok thank you.
UltraMegaOK1988: That does not prove the existence of a God
UltraMegaOK1988: Yours is just as much a hypothesis as mine
gmasterxy****: It does in a way, you aren't understanding, but let me say something
gmasterxy****: Did you have a conversation like this with McDiddy
UltraMegaOK1988: I had a religious-themed conversation with Leo
gmasterxy****: What do you mean
gmasterxy****: Like did you cover things like ths
UltraMegaOK1988: Vaguely, yes
UltraMegaOK1988: He spat out some verses of the Bible, and I refuted them
gmasterxy****: were his statements similar to mine
UltraMegaOK1988: No
UltraMegaOK1988: What are you insinuating?
gmasterxy****: I could spit out verses of the bible, but I tend to not, largely because atheists deny the bibole
UltraMegaOK1988: Why would an Atheist not deny the Bible?
UltraMegaOK1988: It's existence is true; it's validity is not
gmasterxy****: I disagree. But hear me out, okay?
UltraMegaOK1988: The floor is yours
gmasterxy****: If God exists then he can do what he wants whether it is to remain undetected or undetected to anyone. Proving that he does not have to make him self cleary out to somebody
gmasterxy****: Secondly, please don't interrupt
gmasterxy****: Some people encounter revelations of God. But, if the person has a presuppositional base that excludes the existence of God, then such evidence of God would be discarded and missed
UltraMegaOK1988: Tell me when I can fire back
gmasterxy****: Ok not yet.
gmasterxy****: Nothing in the Bible contradicts scientific fact. Evolution of species is not a sceintfic fact, more a theory. Science agrees with the bible
gmasterxy****: one sec
gmasterxy****: If God exists, he may or not provide proof of his existence
gmasterxy****: There are proofs that can be unknown due to that fact that all proofs cannot be known by one person
gmasterxy****: Finally, I suspect that you got the Santa Claus and God comparison from somewhere on the internet
gmasterxy****: your turn
UltraMegaOK1988: Okay
UltraMegaOK1988: I'll quote you as I respond to each
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: If God exists then he can do what he wants whether it is to remain undetected or undetected to anyone. Proving that he does not have to make him self cleary out to somebody
UltraMegaOK1988: That's a justification, you're being a God-apologist again. Tell me, does Santa exist even though you have never seen him? The same goes for God.
UltraMegaOK1988: As I did for you, I wish not to be interrupted :-)
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: Some people encounter revelations of God. But, if the person has a presuppositional base that excludes the existence of God, then such evidence of God would be discarded and missed
UltraMegaOK1988: Are Eagles fans blind when it comes to the Cowboys? It's absurd to say that someone can be blind due to their opinion
UltraMegaOK1988: If I witness a miracle, of course - as an Atheist - I'll justify it with logic and reason, rather than dub it as a "miracle" as a Christian would
UltraMegaOK1988: There have never been any "miracles" that cannot be explained by logic and reason
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: Nothing in the Bible contradicts scientific fact. Evolution of species is not a sceintfic fact, more a theory. Science agrees with the bible
UltraMegaOK1988: Not true. Why is there controversy regarding Evolution and the Big Bang Effect theories?
gmasterxy****: May I sustain a quick interruption, before my head blows off?
UltraMegaOK1988: No
gmasterxy****: Ok
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: Finally, I suspect that you got the Santa Claus and God comparison from somewhere on the internet
UltraMegaOK1988: Yes, I did, I got it from
UltraMegaOK1988: I mean
UltraMegaOK1988: gmasterxy****: There are proofs that can be unknown due to that fact that all proofs cannot be known by one person
UltraMegaOK1988: That's another apology you're making for God
gmasterxy****: You are unable to distinguish historical documents from constructed children stories
: As an enthusiast of logic and reason, everything is able to be explained; if something occurs that cannot be explained, I will renounce my lack of religion
UltraMegaOK1988: How is the Bible any different than the story of Santa Claus?
UltraMegaOK1988: You don't know of its origin, you assume it was written by God
gmasterxy****: We know Santa Claus's origin
: So?
UltraMegaOK1988: Just so you know, I will be posting this conversation on my website
UltraMegaOK1988: I will remove your screenname for security and anonymity
UltraMegaOK1988: Unless you wish otherwise
gmasterxy****: Possibly, I could prove otherwise - it depends on how this ends
gmasterxy****: "Consider logic. Logic presupposes that its principles are necessarily true. However, according to the brand of Christianity assumed by TAG [transcendental argument for God], God created everything, including logic; or at least everything, including logic, is dependent on God. But if something is created by or is dependent on God, it is not necessary -- it is contingent on God..."
UltraMegaOK1988: So, God would create something that can prove his fallibility?
UltraMegaOK1988: Logic, I believe, can and will disprove your God, therefore, your God is fallible
gmasterxy****: Hmm
: I'm going to disagree once again
: "logic is a necessary, uncreated, and non-contingent necessity given God's absolute, perfect, and eternal existence. Logic would not be changeable because God is not changeable. This explains why logical truths are always true. They are absolute and transcendent by nature because God is absolute and transcendent by nature. Logic is non-self-contradictory, because God is non-self-contradictory"
UltraMegaOK1988: Except that logic and God are polar opposites
UltraMegaOK1988: Thereby being contradictory of each other
gmasterxy****: Nope.
: If logic were a creation of God, it would not be possible to disprove anything about him, as God is perfect
gmasterxy****: Thus, I say that God is Logic. What else could He be - some being who is constructed of more fundamental parts - some intellect that has developed over a vast period of time? These cannot claim to have always been Eternal, nor Omnipresent, nor All powerful, nor all knowing, which are required attributes for a claim of being "GOD".
UltraMegaOK1988: If that were true, God would be a direct contradiction of himself
gmasterxy****: Actually it wouldn't
: If God is logic, and logic can disprove God, then God is a contradiction
gmasterxy****: No, if God is logic, then you can not argue that God doesn't exist
: But I can
gmasterxy****: How?
: What have I been doing throughout this conversation?
gmasterxy****: What have I been doing?
: Being a God-apologist :-D
gmasterxy****: "Thus you cannot prove that there is no God.For you would only admit by the very act of presenting your argumentthat logic indeed determines the facts, and so thus it must exist."
: Except that I can argue that there is no God
gmasterxy****: But you can't
: Can you prove he does exist?
UltraMegaOK1988: No.
UltraMegaOK1988: You can't prove it either way
gmasterxy****: I can prove it
: If you can prove it, then once again, why are people believing in Judaism, Hinduism, and Atheism?
UltraMegaOK1988: If it can be proven, then those people would migrate from a core set of beliefs that are mere theories, to your set of beliefs that have been proven
UltraMegaOK1988: It can't be proven
gmasterxy****: Peoplea are believing in those because they are mis-interpreting the truth
: The truth is different for each person
UltraMegaOK1988: The truth is not your religion, or your God, to those other people
gmasterxy****: They are ignorant of the truth
: You cannot prove your religion or God; therefore, your religion or God aren't the truth; and therefore, they are not ignorant of the truth
UltraMegaOK1988: In a sense, we are all ignorant of the truth
gmasterxy****: I believe in God, but I will offer you this
: As Blaise Pascal (French Mathematician) said "God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures."
UltraMegaOK1988: That's the rationale I feel has best described your religion
UltraMegaOK1988: It's a win-win situation believing in God
UltraMegaOK1988: But it doesn't make it right
gmasterxy****: It's a win win situation when you believe in God. God is true, God exists, and God is great. I won't ever deny his existence for this mere fact. You can consider this conversation part 1
: You can write my screen name
: On your thing
: I'll asterisk your numbers
gmasterxy****: You can write the whole thing, its fine by me
: I have nothing to be ashamed of
: I definately would like to continue this later, if that is fine by you/
UltraMegaOK1988: Yeah, but even though I don't get a great deal of traffic, there is enough for there to be that one malcontent who will use it maliciously; I'd rather not be responsible for that, even though I would not have any repercussions for it
gmasterxy****: ok then